Waterbomber feared lost in Australia

"Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen" (distraxi) 01/22/2020 at 23:54 • Filed to: Planelopnik, AUSTRALIA

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Contact has been lost with a C130 fighting bushfires in New South Wales. Looks like the fire season can chalk up some more first responders’ lives.

When you actually stop and think about it, low altitude aerobatics in a large aircraft above thermal events fierce enough to create their own weather is heroically dangerous. It’s kinda surprising it doesn’t happen even more often than it does.

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Maxima Speed > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 00:14

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Rest In Peace to those brave crew members.

HammerheadFistpunch > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 00:18

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Thats scary.  I just found out my backyard neighbor is going to be flying c130 waterbomber missions up in Alaska 6 months out of the year. he just left for training.  

For Sweden > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 00:24

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Old airframes + frequent cycles + emergency response = you better have a healthy safety culture if you want to not cause another disaster

facw > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 00:30

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Yeah, it’s very risky, especially for larger aircraft.

And it’s not at all clear that it’s effective, as opposed to just a highly visible (and expensive) show that the government is doing something.

Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show

After seven years of the air tanker effectiveness study, what have we learned?

RallyWrench > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 00:31

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Well, fuck. Just devastating news on the fires every day.  E ven being used to the threat in California, it's unimaginable.

gettingoldercarguy > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 00:35

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I don't like reading this stuff.

facw > For Sweden 01/23/2020 at 00:37

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This aircraft was apparently built in 1981.

ranwhenparked > facw 01/23/2020 at 00:46

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Which is nothing for a C130, the USAF is expecting to get 70-75 years out of some of theirs. 

For Sweden > ranwhenparked 01/23/2020 at 00:47

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The  air scouts aren’t fighting fires

For Sweden > facw 01/23/2020 at 00:47

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That quite a long time in fire fighting year s

facw > ranwhenparked 01/23/2020 at 00:58

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I’d be surprised if they get that old in US hands. Any aircraft kept in service that long are replacement C-130s Lockheed doesn’t get to sell. A quick look at C-130.net shows the oldest currently in active inventory as being ‘73s (unless I missed some, which is possible ), and those are generally ones that have been converted for specialized tasks (their info also seems somewhat dated, though one of those old planes has an update from 2018, so it isn’t that stale) . The general use ones look like they start in the early ‘80s.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 01:00

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Yep... she’s gone. Three dead....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-23/nsw-rfs-air-tanker-crashes-near-numeralla-bushfire/11893554

facw > For Sweden 01/23/2020 at 01:05

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True but it hasn’t been used for fighting fires for most of that time. I can’t find when it was converted but it was apparently at the boneyard for quite a while.

The first photos I found of it as a tanker were from 2019, so it may be a recent reactivation.

M.T. Blake > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 01:25

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Well shit. That’s tragic. Those guys have a rough and dangerous job. Aren’t many more difficult things to do in an airplane.

I was surprised to hear we in California have the worlds largest fire fighting air fleet. I wonder why we haven’t sent any to Australia? Probably too far to fly them?

DipodomysDeserti > M.T. Blake 01/23/2020 at 01:46

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I have a relative who is a Hotshot. He will never go to CA to fight fires. CA Fire is an absolute shitshow. I wouldn’t apply logic to  anything CA does.

bob and john > M.T. Blake 01/23/2020 at 01:48

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likely. those old frames dont have the legs to do the pacific hop. 

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > RallyWrench 01/23/2020 at 02:29

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Oz is a whole ‘n other level from Cali. So far this year they’ve  lost over 10x the acreage California did all last season and they’re not even half way through fire season yet. It’s mind blowing. 

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > facw 01/23/2020 at 02:51

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Interesting. Here in Oz they are not being used to extinguish fire. They are simply being used to buy ground crews time to either protect property or prepare more effective containment lines as the fire approaches. Put simply...they are being used to retard fires. And, apparently, to quite some effect.

I myself watched two of them drop retardant lines near my town just a couple of weeks as part of cutting off an approaching fire from houses...it worked too.

Regardless, the re are now three American citizens who, for better or worse,  will always be part of this country and they will have our heartfelt respect and thanks.

facw > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 01/23/2020 at 03:11

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That’s pretty much how they are all used. The question is whether they can accurately dump enough retardant to make a difference slowing down fires to justify their enormous cost. That’s not clear, though it would be nice if the study mentioned in my second link ever comes out. That link also does point to this Australian study: https://wildfiretoday.com/documents/AustralianStudy-EffectivenessAerialFirefighting.pdf

It’s a bit dense for me to take in at 3 in the morning , but if I’m reading this chart right:

It looks like they are only showing it making much of a difference if you can get the response in very quickly (and not at all for the most dangerous fires).  

None of that is to take away from the bravery of these flight crews, and I’m sure their efforts do help, there’s just the possibility that given the high costs of this type of action, it may well make sense to invest other methods instead (and the linked article also points to another study showing better results with smaller aircraft carrying skimmed water vs. large aircraft with retardant, which have a harder time dropping their load precisely )

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > facw 01/23/2020 at 04:13

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Our FFDI has rarely been less than 50 so far this summer...

I thoroughly understand your concern and it mirrors mine. The LATs and the  bigger VLATs are great at the limited range of tasks that they can do. But we can't expect them to achieve everything... especially when we are flat out achieving anything against some of our fires...

PG; the scalpel wielder > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 05:23

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this is dreadful. This plane has been flying over my house for the past few months now, sometimes doing dozens of runs to Richmond Airforce Base. I often fear for the old DC-10 VLAT as that plane looks really old 

M.T. Blake > DipodomysDeserti 01/23/2020 at 05:26

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Seems like he’s missing out on an opportunity for some experience.

Public safety is tempered by chaos. Never pass on the experience to be inside a shitshow.

M.T. Blake > bob and john 01/23/2020 at 05:27

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That’s what I figured. Too bad really. I’m sure there are plenty of firefighters willing to make the trip. 

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > M.T. Blake 01/23/2020 at 06:11

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News here just reported it was a Canadian plane with an American crew

shop-teacher > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 06:53

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That's very sad news :(

Just Jeepin' > gettingoldercarguy 01/23/2020 at 07:04

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I pretty much gave up on following the  news years ago, a decision which was heavily reinforced when we elected Joe Isuzu.

DipodomysDeserti > M.T. Blake 01/23/2020 at 08:16

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You don’t want to screw around with poor management while fighting fires. We’re from Arizona, and were both acquaintances of one of the Granite Mountain hotshots. Chaos leads to you getting  burnt alive.

ranwhenparked > facw 01/23/2020 at 09:28

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They have an ongoing program to rebuild C-130H models with new wing boxes and avionics to extend service life to 2045, which are '70s airframe. They're doing the same upgrades to '80s vintage C-130Js to extend service to beyond 2045.

BrooklynEagle > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 10:05

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In 2002, a C-130 tanker broke up and crashed during a bombing run over a California fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_airtanker_crashes

RallyWrench > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/23/2020 at 13:21

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Truly heartbreaking. I spoke with a client Tuesday who said his whole hometown burned down, his buddies are on the fire brigade. Unbelievable loss.